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Welcome to Wikimedia Incubator!

At the right there are some important links, and here are some tips and info:

• If you haven't created a user page yet, please create one with for example Babel templates on it.
• You can select your interface language in your preferences.
• If you make articles, templates or categories, don't forget to add a prefix!
• If your knowledge of English is good, you can help with translating pages to other languages you know, so more people can understand it!
• If you want to translate the interface, please go to Translatewiki.net and follow the instructions.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask them on Incubator:Community Portal.

-- Welcoming Bot 17:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Good to see you here ...

It looks like you're moving things along. Outstanding! Let me know if I can be of assistance. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you StevenJ81! I was editing under another name, couple a months ago, so I know how to edit. That isn't my problem. My problem is the language and the fact I wasn't familiar with how the Incubator works. But I can give it a try. Do I need to request a test-admin? -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 21:14, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

You don't need to request a test-admin. Any regular sysop on Incubator can perform any admin action in a test. (The one template around here that doesn't really need to be prefixed is {{delete}}. If you mark a page with that and give a reason, someone—usually me—will eventually come around and delete it.) Once you've been around and active a little while—let's say, at least three months—we can can consider making you a test-admin. The only possibility of speeding that up is if you're willing to share the previous user name with me, even off-wiki by email. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:23, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I think that will be not necessary. Due to conflicts with some users I closed that page and start a new account. I now want to concentrate on my work here. As fore the adminship goes. I can wait and want to prove that I deserved it. If an access is needed to the Common.css and .js I'll contact you or somebody else, if you don't mind. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 21:34, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I thought something like that might be the case. No worries. We'll just move on from here. Ping me, or drop a line on I:AN, if you need help. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:42, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I'll do it. Thank you again! -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 21:49, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

some additional work

Hello StevenJ81, as you said I create this three pages: Wt/cu/Common.css, Wt/cu/Common.js, Wt/cu/Gadget-StyleArticles.css. It's really quite difficult to work so, because you don't see if things actually works. I didn't notice that I needed to add Wt/cu also inside templates or invokes and I just thought something was wrong. I want to use the template S for the sections. If I don't use the prefix inside the {{S|}} the template doesn't work. If I do I maybe will need to remove that later if the wiktionary gets it's own domain. Or maybe an bot will help. If you have time, please create the mediawiki files. Thank you kindly! -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 21:45, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you have to add the prefixes inside of template and module calls, too. If/when the test is exported to its own subdomain, that will all be stripped out in the process of the export.

I'll move those pages into MediaWiki space. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Done StevenJ81 (talk) 21:53, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, I think I'll be needing an test adminship after all. I have a lot to create and can't bother you at all. It will take at least couple of months to finish this if I need to ask you every single time to help me out. And I'm a human and humans make mistakes, so don't want to take your time. I was an administrator on the mk.wiktionary.org, but do to conflicts decided to step out. So you can trace my ex username by checking the last active administrator there. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 22:19, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Sending you an email. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, be sure to turn on the gadget "AddPrefix". That will make your life much easier. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:24, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, the following need to be created: Wt/cu/Gadget-NavFrame.js, Wt/cu/Gadget-NavFrame.css, Wt/cu/Gadget-DeclensionTab.js, Wt/cu/Gadget-DeclensionTab.css, Wt/cu/Gadget-StyleScripts.css, Wt/cu/Gadget-searchEngines.js, Wt/cu/Gadget-RedirectCommons.js, Wt/cu/Gadget-Declensions.css, Wt/cu/Gadgets-definition. Thank you! -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 10:13, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

OK. Did common.js and common.css; will get to the rest over time. I hadn't noticed yesterday, but could you please make sure all font-family specifications refer to freely available fonts? thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:42, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello StevenJ81, which one is not freely available font? I imported them from the fr.wiktionary.org. Didn't they check that? Give me a signal if you had added the rest, so I can go further with the testing and creating more words. Greetings! -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 17:45, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Done Probably offline the rest of the day. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

You'd need to check with someone on font policy. If you copied from Wiktionnaire I can hardly complain. (Please remember to attribute, even if you just create a page called "Wt/cu/Wiktionary:Attribution" and put everything there.) But I know, for example, that Arial is actually not a free font; it is owned by Microsoft. Now, just about everyone has it, and it gets mapped to other things, so it might be just fine. I just wanted to make sure you thought about that issue.

I'll get to other pages later today my time. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, you're right. I'll look at that soon. As for the gadgets, take your time. I'm until 23:00 later today. One more thing, I heard today that the current "Wikimedia Foundation policy doesn't allow creating any new projects written in classical languages except for Wikisource". It's that actually true, and why is that? Even the Latin has it's own Wiktionary. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 18:10, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Foundation, by policy, is looking to make all the world's information available to all the world's people. As an overall rule, they see projects in living languages as contributing to that end, and projects in extinct, ancient or classical languages as not contributing to that end. Wikisource in extinct, ancient or classical languages is an obvious natural exception to that.

Understand, also, that Latin is, if you will, sui generis. For starters, many of the Latin projects were here before the current policy was put in place. Additionally, Latin remained an important medium of communication until fairly recently and is still important in some contexts today. Moreover there is a substantial body of literature written in it.

Fans of Ancient Greek often try to make the claim that it is substantially equivalent to Latin in many regards. Until recently, that argument has only had limited traction: the Foundation has more-or-less agreed that projects in grc can remain at Incubator indefinitely (see below), but that Wp/grc would never be approved as its own subdomain project. That may be changing.

The following is my opinion, not necessarily fact. I'm starting to see some evolution in the thinking going into this. I'm seeing certain differences developing along these lines:

• Classical languages with a large body of written literature vs. ancient or extinct languages lacking such a body of literature. The Foundation doesn't desire, for example, to create a writing system for an extinct language that was generally a spoken language with little or no writing.
• Wikipedia, and to some extent Wiktionary and Wikiquotes, vs. Wikibooks, Wikinews and Wikivoyage. Wiktionary can clearly support Wikipedia projects, and if there is a body of literature there is likely a body of quotations. But Wikibooks—which is for modern texts, not ancient ones—along with Wikinews and Wikitravel are intended to help people with current information. Nobody is ever going to go to an Old Church Slavonic Wikitravel, right?

The current policy is that the Foundation does not approve new subdomain projects in ancient, extinct or classical languages. However, Incubator policy is that any natural language having a valid ISO 639–3 code may have one or more test projects here, and those can theoretically stay here indefinitely. (There are some nuances to that rule for artificial languages, macrolanguages, and the like, that I'm finessing for now.) So at worst, Wt/cu can live here forever. It's less clear whether it would ever be allowed to evolve to cu.wiktionary.org.

My suspicion is that eventually, the Foundation will allow Wikipedia, Wiktionary and Wikiquotes projects in classical languages with a large body of literature. Certainly cu qualifies for that. However, I think I'd operate on the assumption for now that your project will live here for the indefinite future, and worry about anything else when the time comes. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:39, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the long explanation. Maybe the number of words I want to add to the Wiktionary can help approving this project. We will see when the time has come. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 19:07, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break 16:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello StevenJ81, you can add mw.loader.load( '/w/index.php?title=User:Vvs-dm/common.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript' ); to your own javascript to see the first look of the word бесѣда. The translation table doesn't work because of the Incubator's common.css and .js, which are getting in the way. Also want to say that the work is quite complex if you need to think of putting prefixes to all templates, codes and articles. Therefore I would like to make a request for approval. Maybe I will not get one, but at least I can try. For now, I find creating of new words complex and if I go on I maybe will need to reedit the articles afterwards to add some translation to it. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 14:22, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll check out the script. Thanks.

I may also have you give me a hand with a couple of gadgets I'd like to take from here over to Ladino Wikipedia, where I am also a sysop. I haven't been able to get one or two to work, and maybe your coding experience can help me see why I can't get them to work.

As for putting in an RFL, you can do that. I'm going to suggest you hold off for just a little bit, though, and here's why:

• Approvals always require there to be an active community in the test project. That is usually assumed to mean, at minimum, three editors making at least 10 edits each over a period of at least three months. Right now, Wt/cu is a one-man show, so is almost guaranteed, at best, to be put on hold.
• The chances are that your request would be marked as "eligible", and/or "on hold". BUT ... since CU is not considered a living language, there is still the possibility that those not wanting to expand projects to ancient languages will start giving you a hard time.
• You just don't have enough mainspace pages for the project to be taken as a serious candidate for approval.

I understand your frustration, though. It's just something you'll have to be patient with. Do turn on the prefix gadget; that will help automate some of the work of adding prefixes. (As for the translation table, what's the issue? Maybe I'll clear something in the common files.)

A question for you, though: do you expect to be doing much more in MediaWiki space, or do you feel like you're pretty nearly done with that? There's a reason I'm asking, but answer me first. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, I'll try! For which gadgets do you need my help? I can look at it.

I'm not frustrated, but kinda confused. The things getting away with the translation table are the nav codes for collapsing and the style of the table. If you delete those the rest of the templates on the other test projects would not work. Also there are redirections to functions inside JavaScript I can't prefixed with Wt/cu. Thus they show a nil value. I can wait, but can't add translations to the articles, because of the template. It doesn't work. And my problem is that maybe I will need to reedit those pages again afterwards.

As for the MediaWiki space I'm not so sure. I need to translate some of the files, such as Wiktionary into Викиаꙁъбоукъвьникъ and Template into Обраꙁьць. Maybe that will help a little bit. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 17:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I:RFTA

I'd reckon at this point that both you and the test are (barely) eligible at this point. But test-admins do not have the editinterface right, so I'd have to flag you as a translator as well. If I do so, I'll ask you to make a personal commitment to me that you will not edit any unprefixed pages in MediaWiki. (I'd consider any /cu subpages of multilingual pages as being the equivalent of a prefixed page.) If you see something else needing fixing, please ask first. I may then ask you to do it, but I don't want either of us going too far out on a limb. OK?

If that's acceptable to you, add "translator" to your request. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:29, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, am not interesting in changing anything on other projects or MW. Only the WT OCS project. Do I need to replace the test adminship with "translator"? Or shall I add it next to it. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 17:45, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Depends how much page deletion you need to do. Translators can't delete pages. Test-admins can't edit the interface. Put down what you think you need. (I didn't think you were interested in editing anything else. But I wanted to put it on the record.) StevenJ81 (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm about to flag you. The one point I'd like to add is: don't edit the main gadgets pages. I'm thinking of testing out adding your project-specific gadget there, since you have everything chained to a single over-gadget (I think). But I'd rather be watching that really closely. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:13, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, put it on hold for another 2 days. I'm trying something different. Thank you kindly! You're fast. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 14:16, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I am. Now, delete your own page. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. You could do it also :). -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 16:31, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

User script and gadget issues

Hi. You're a more experienced coder than I am, so here's a question: Is there any reason that you can tell that my common.js, global.js and gadget scripts are no longer automatically loading for me? It seems to have started a couple of weeks ago after a MW version change. On two different computers I own/use, and using a couple of different browsers on one of them, I have this problem. On the other hand, I do not have the problem on my iPad, using Safari, in desktop mode. Any thoughts? Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, I'm not an expert so can't help ya in a good way. You should first look to what's changed in the update, which I couldn't find, and see if there is something mentioned about the loader you used in it. I see you want to load scripts from other WP's, maybe there is some new addition going in the proces. I've had that in one of the Wiktionaries when the editor for adding translations stopped working because of an MW update. -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 17:53, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, slowly but surely I'm working on it. Will keep you posted. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:34, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, I was told some months ago that using scripts from other project isn't possible. And that you need to import them first to the project itself. Otherwise I wouldn't need to create scripts that sometimes doesn't work on another project. Well, maybe that changed? -- Vēnī‧vīdī‧scrīpsī ^[DM] 18:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Things are working again. I think what was happening to me was a combination of a deprecated module call and the fact that it was taking so long to render the page that some of the .js timed out. Someone on enwiki Village Pump (technical) helped me fix it.

As you can see, sometimes you can use a script directly from a different project. I would use a script directly from a non-WM project because of Terms of Use (etc.) issues, and I'd have to say that if it's something that will conceivably be used a lot, it would slow things down a fair amount if you're always calling it from elsewhere. (Also, I doubt that a gadget can be run as a gadget from elsewhere.)

Speaking of gadgets, if you actually want to run what you're writing as a true gadget, I think we'd have to run a request on I:CP and see what people think. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2017 (UTC)