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General entries style | Writing in Arabic/Latin in Wiktionary


Hello, I see that you are interested in the Tunisian Wiktionary, however, I think the style that you are using needs some restyling. I made two general styles for Algerian Wiktionary, the first, which is used now, is based on the German Wiktionary. The second is purely based on the English Wiktionary, which seemed to me more helpful than the German one. I recommend using it.
As for the second subject, I am currently "mass adding" words to Algerian Wiktionary from some dictionaries, it now has about 200 words (in two days). However, I want to have an agreement with all the people interested in Maghrebi language(@User:Bachounda, @User:Hafiben, @User:Oldstoneage, @User:Saly Mansouri, @User:Gêt Fenyan, @User:Enzoreg, @User:Anass_Sedrati, @User:Reda Kerbouche) about which script to actually use? As you know both scripts have advantages and disadvantages, so which one should we use? Remember that in the future we can switch to another script at any time. I need your opinions. R.B. Special characters will be added to both, Arabic and Latin scripts. This includes the emphatic Ṛ and Ẓ. Also, keep in mind that the Arabic orthography is an etymological one (less irregularity in spelling and harder reading for new learners [children]), while the Latin orthography is very phonemic (which leads to a correct pronunciation but many spellings for the same word.) R.B. 2: For users who don't know about this, we are trying to create one Standard Maghrebi (written) language, which will be used on Wikimedia projects. --GeekEmad (talk) 08:37, 2 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

Since nobody replied, I'm going to use Arabic script with the letters ڭ, ڤ, ڕ, ژ. These letters were chosen carefully, the for the /g/ a Kaf with three dots avoids the confusion between /g/ and /v/. As for spelling vowels, unless the vowel is stressed (long), it is written as in Arabic. As for the initial Alef, it is used depending on the pattern of the word and its syllabification (we write اصفر following the pattern افعل and we write اسامي following the pattern فعالي). --GeekEmad (talk) 19:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)Reply
Hello Emad. Sorry for the late reply, I did not receive a notification and just saw that you have mentionned me in the discussion. In Morocco, we are exclusively using now the arabic letters to write darija. This debate was in the beginning of the 2000's because the only available keyboards had latin alphabet, which obliged everybody to write with latin alphabet + letters such as 9 or 7. This changed now with a widespread arabic keyboard, and it is very rare to see people writing darija in Latin letters (except for chat). In the Moroccan wikipedia incubator, you can still find some articles in latin alphabet, but I am changing them gradually all to the Arabic alphabet. For Algeria, I beleive that the situation is more or less the same, as I have met @User:Bachounda and @User:Reda Kerbouche , and they confirmed me that they use more the Arabic alphabet for writing the Algerian darija in wikipedia as well. --Anass_Sedrati (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2016 (UTC)Reply

مكلم و قاموس و ديكسيونار


عسلامة، ريت تبديلات الاخّرانين و حبّيت نعطي رايي فازة الترجمة متاع كلمة dictionarium ولا dictionnaire: الكلمة اللاتينية معناها حرف حرف هو «البلاصة اللي يتكلّمو فيها»، هاذاك علاش كالكلتها و طلّعت كلمة «مكلم». المشكلة اللي كي تمشي ل الشارع و تقول ل حدّ «تعرف آش معنتها "مكلم"؟» باش يقول لك «لا!»، دونك، بقا الاختيار بين قاموس و ديكسيونار. الاغلبيّة تاع العباد قارين عربي ف الكُتّاب ولا ف المدرسة، نسبة آقلّ قارين ب الفرنسيس. هاذاك علاش الناس الكلّ يفهمو كلمة «قاموس» آما موش ب الضرورة يفهمو كلمة «ديكسيونار».

حاجة اُخرة، جماعة الويكيمديا ناداو ل لنڨويست قبل باش يسالوه على جودة الكتيبة و اللوغة متاع ويكيپديا ب الدارجة التونسيّة، قالهم راهم يستعملو في كتيبة ما تتّقرا شي و بعيدة ع الكتيبة اللي يستعملوها الناس، و زيد قالهم راهم يستعملو في برشة كلام فرنسيس الاغلبيّة تاع الاعباد ما يفهموه شي، في عوض ما يستعملو الكلمات اللي ب العربي.

كونكلوجن: يُستحسن استعمال الكلمة العربية «قاموس» على الكلمة الفرانساوية «ديكسيونار».--GeekEmad (talk) 08:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

GeekEmad: تو نستعمل كلمة منجد على خاطر العباد يستعملوها في الدارجة أكثر من قاموس. مرسي عليك. --Csisc (talk) 10:01, 3 March 2017 (UTC)Reply

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Thank you. StevenJ81 (talk) (Incubator bureaucrat) 21:29, 7 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Csisc: Thank you very much for fixing errors in Wp/khw, --RAChitrali 11:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

Quick note about the Arabic spelling system


Hello, I recently got to listen to some southern Tunisian dialects, they pronunciation sounds more conservative than the pre-Hilalian dialects, so, you might keep the final long /a/ in Arabic spelling: بيضا، حمرا، زرقا، عفشا، عذرا. The Latin script is more pre-Hilalian in its spelling, so no distinction is kept. --عimad (talk) 09:55, 16 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

GeekEmad: This is practically accurate. I think that Maghrebi orthography is excellent enough to be used in Wikimedia projects... There is only the problem of the use of Alif Maqsura in words in krasi as Alif Maqsura is used in mcha, ja... I discussed with Algerian users about it. They are not against it as the orthography is mainly based on Maghrebi and Algerian behavior on the social networks... However, I ask if you can develop a little book about Standard Maghrebi in which you explain the orthographies to be used to transcribe it with reference to your research works, in which you explain the idea of Standard Written Maghrebi or Functional Algerian (Algerian Morphology with Common Maghrebi vocabulary, The idea seems to be inspired from the one of Functional Arabic) and in which you give a detailed overview of Algerian morphology to be used, and a detailed lexicon of common Maghrebi words to be used in this variant... This book is very important to do if you want Algerians to use your orthography... Take your time to do it and publish it as "Standard Maghrebi or Functional Algerian: a constructed auxillary language for efficient written communication between Maghrebi people"... --Csisc (talk) 09:47, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
I will. Next week I finish my exams. I think that the Tunisian Darja (or Derja) Association is very far from a similar orthography?
Should the Maghrebi Wikipedia be digraphic or monographic? Because one certain thing is that most people interested in learning the language and reading it will be Maghrebis living in Europe and Israel? I've been working on an easy Latin transcription to be used optionally with the Arabic script. It can also be used to teach things like Mathematics, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology or to keep the Left-to-Right alignment of websites and computers interfaces? (e.g. ech-chiḥ, el-ghriq, khleq, ṣneɛ, ṭar, roṣṣ, ruṣ) Don't worry, this will be discussed with the Algerian and Moroccan users. The users will decide on the orthography to use. --عimad (talk) 10:39, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
GeekEmad: Yes, Derja Association orthography is absolutely different from the one you created. It is still controversial and need to be ameliorated. I think that your orthography will be ready before. As for your questions regarding digraphs, Derja Association decided to develop both writing systems. You know that digraph based writing will not need to use additional Latin graphs and consequently it is easily recognized by any computer or device. However, monograph based writing is easier to learn as the digraphs will not cause reading difficulties. As for the constructed language, think about writing "Standard Maghrebi or Functional Algerian: a constructed auxillary language for efficient written communication between Maghrebi people"... this will be an excellent initiative to develop a standard variant for Maghrebi (Algerian morphology with common Maghrebi vocabulary, inspired from the principles of Functional Arabic, using your writing systems)... --Csisc (talk) 10:51, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, what I meant with a digraphic orthography is an orthography like that of Berber or Serbian, i.e. users two scripts (Tifinagh/Latin, Serbian/Latin...) --عimad (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
GeekEmad: Of course, Derja Association considers creating two or three writing systems for Tunisian and let users choose one of them. --Csisc (talk) 11:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
GeekEmad: However, for Wikipedia, it will be difficult to do that and have recognition from the WMF language committee. That is why Wikipedia Algerian is only written using Arabic Script. --Csisc (talk) 11:54, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
(talk page stalker) @GeekEmad, Csisc: Not necessarily so. There are a number of fully functional projects (Kazakh Wikipedia, for example) that use multiple writing systems simultaneously. LangCom doesn't want something made up out of thin air, of course, but if more than one writing system is commonly used for something, LangCom is happy to accommodate that. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
@StevenJ81, Csisc: A direct conversion between Arabic and Latin scripts is impossible. I was actually thinking about something similar to the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia.
@StevenJ81: Yesterday I had a shower-thought about Berber languages' Wikipedia. Theoretically, for Kabyle, Chawi, Mzab, Rif, Shelha, Tamazight, and maybe even Nefussa, Ghdames, and Tunisian Berber, it is possible to make a large conversion table and have only one Wikipedia in these languages/varieties/dialects. They mostly differ in the vocabulary, but also some grammatical points (e.g. some dialects use ur for negation, while others use wer). Is such an idea possible to apply? (It's just an idea, I don't actually speak Berber and it seems that Berbers are not very interested in Wikipedia yet, Kabyle Wp as an example). --عimad (talk) 14:06, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Csisc, GeekEmad: My point wasn't so much how it might work as much as that WMF is willing to accommodate multiple-script projects. To be very clear, projects that potentially should have allowed multiple scripts have not always done that. In nearly all cases, that has been because the communities themselves were not willing to be accommodating, not because WMF wasn't.
With respect to Berber, we could continue this discussion at Category talk:Incubator:Test wikis/Berber-Amazigh tests. You can see on the associated category page that there is a whole jumble of things going on, and in fact more than a little bit of political maneuvering, within the world of the Berber languages. I'm frankly at quite a loss as to how to sort it all out. But it is certain that it can't be sorted out along the lines you suggest unless we can get the existing communities to work together. And I don't currently see that they are willing to do that. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:18, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Csisc, StevenJ81: This is the point. It is very difficult to let a project use multiples scripts. In fact, the project will be later reviewed by a linguist and if he does not recognize the Latin Script, this will cause a problem to the project. As you already know, the use of Latin Script for Arabic dialects is controversial among linguists.
As for Berber languages, I absolutely agree with GeekEmad. This idea can work. However, we need several efforts to let it successful. But, for the moment, we can create a script converter between Arabic, Latin and Tifinagh scripts for Berber languages. this is easy and can be useful to compare different Berber languages. --Csisc (talk) 14:42, 17 May 2017 (UTC)Reply

Greetings from Pakistan

@Csisc: I am Rehmat Aziz from Pakistan, I working in Pakistani languages incubator projects, you are working in incubator, your contributions are very informative, if you have some spare time please look at this template [1] and fix the errors, thanks --RAChitrali 08:21, 3 April 2019 (UTC)Reply