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Page Wt/lfn/Esperanto edit

Hi, Prof. Boeree:

Is there a reason this page is here in the Wiktionary test? It looks like an early version of the page lfn:Esperanto now found in the Wikipedia. Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:22, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

  • No. I do not know why it is there, and it need not be. For reasons I can't understand, I can't remove pages like I used to - the rules and regulations of wikipedia are a mystery to me! But if you can remove it, please go ahead. If you find any others, in all likelihood they, too, can be removed. Thanks! Cgboeree (talk) 20:07, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Hi. I'll try to make this as easy as I can! Forgive me if I get too basic, but I just want to make sure you have the infrastructure in mind.
  1. There are different "projects" within Wikimedia. The well-known "Wikipedia" (or, more precisely, "English Wikipedia") is located at https://en.wikipedia.org/. Your Elefen Wikipedia is located at https://lfn.wikipedia.org/. The project where we are having this discussion is the Wikimedia Incubator, at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/. You may not always realize when you've jumped from one project to another, because their look and feel on-wiki is fairly standard.
    • The Incubator is where projects get started and grow until they are ready to be out on their own. The Elefen Wikipedia was here from January 2017 until it was approved and spun off in April 2018.
    • There is nominally an Elefen Wiktionary project on Incubator; it is located at Wt/lfn. Once I delete the page we were discussing above—you'll be able to tell because the hyperlink will turn red—that Wiktionary project will have only one page, a main page, here: Wt/lfn/Paje xef. Now, people can create a project like that whether or not you would prefer it. Still, if you think you'd like to focus the Elefen community's dictionary-building efforts on the already existing project (at http://elefen.org/disionario/), then I would encourage you to contact the following users on their user talk pages: @DraconicDark and @Robin van der Vliet. They are the only people besides you who have made substantive edits to this Wiktionary project. If you all agree to close the Wiktionary project I can do that, and even put a pointer to your other dictionary project in its place.
    • If it does no harm, I suppose you can keep it open. My understanding of wt was that anyone could add words in any language to a single international dictionary. Clearly, I was wrong! I will honor whatever you think is best. Cgboeree (talk) 10:58, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  2. You never had the right to delete pages here on Incubator. You had the right to delete pages on the Elefen Wikipedia because you were an administrator there for three months. See this page just for a description of the extra rights an administrator has (compared to a "regular" user).
    • On new and small projects (like Elefen Wikipedia), user rights like this are always temporary. Yours were good for three months, and expired a few days ago. In order to have the rights renewed, you have to go back to the page lfn:Vicipedia:Voteria and make a request to renew your administrator status. The request discussion must stay open at least seven days. Once that is successful, you then take the results to the stewards. (Chabi knows how, or ask here and I'll help.) This time, you will probably get the rights for six months, not only three.
    • I had no idea. The policy seems a bit extreme in small projects - continuity is pretty important, and the rights of an admin seem pretty restricted. But no matter. I will do as you suggest. Cgboeree (talk) 10:58, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
I hope that was helpful. Just ask if you have any other questions; I'll watch this page for a while. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
There's certainly no harm in leaving the main page of an Elefen Wiktionary in place, although if you would look at it to make sure it's in proper Elefen I would appreciate it. And I think I will add some pointers on the project's info page to both your dictionary project and the English Wiktionary appendix.
  • Continuity of administrators. Your point is well taken. Your case in particular—as the acknowledged creator of and authority on the language—is quite unique. Most of the time, stewards are dealing with tradeoffs: does a new administrator use the administrator tools properly? Does s/he abuse them?[2] Does the new administrator remain active? On big projects, the community itself can police these things, but in a small project, if an administrator gets abusive, it can be hard to stop him/her. By requiring an administrator to get reconfirmed at regular intervals, there is some check on potential dictatorial behavior.
I'm sure in the normal course of events, you would be given a six-month term this time; I might be able to convince the stewards to go up to 12 months. But until a project gets big enough to police itself, administator terms will be time-limited. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
PS: If you find yourself hovering around the neighborhood of Rutgers University at some point, let me know. I live near New Brunswick, NJ, and would be happy to meet you. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:46, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply


  1. I don't know why; you'd have to ask over there.
  2. The tools are, perhaps, less limited than you realize. You can completely and indefinitely block abusive users from your wiki as an administrator. And as long as that's why you use that function, no one will complain. But there are projects where administrators have used that tool to block people they disagree with (but who are not abusive in the eyes of an outside, objective observer.
  • Thank you again for the help. I rarely travel nowadays - especially not thru NJ or NYC (tho' I grew up on LI and Waldwick NJ). I have lost my nerve for that kind of driving. But thank you for the invitation, and if I do head up that way, I will be sure to knock on your door (after calling you first, of course). Cgboeree (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • I just noticed on your homepage: You are interested in yiddish and ladino. I've "studied" yiddish a bit (not to the speaking level), but knowing Dutch and German (also a little), it isn't hard to read. As long as I can look up the hebrew words, of course. I've also looked at ladino for hints as to how far one can go with romance languages and still be a romance language. (like my interest in creoles, really, and afrikaans.) I'm not Jewish, but growing up on LI... well, you know. As they say, some of my best friends are Jewish. My son-in-law is Jewish, but he's the kind that has abandoned all things Jewish. Personally, I think that's a pity, but hey, I'm Dutch protestant and I don't have much to do with my heritage either. Oh, and my mother's mother's mother's mother and father were Jewish. So I suppose I could move to Israel with the rabbis' blessings! :-)
Absolutely right! If you can prove your mother's mother's mother's mother, then you are Jewish by Jewish law. Mazal tov!
Look, I am by no means a linguist—even a hobbyist to the degree you are. But Ladino (actually, speakers prefer "Judeo-Spanish") is unquestionably a Romance language; in its purest form, the principle loanwords are those naming religious concepts and items, like in Yiddish (or like in this Yeshivish that may or may not be a proto-Judeo-English).
(Look, for example, at this Ladino liturgical translation; it is still sung at the Sephardic synagogue in my town, which was founded by immigrants from Salonika in the 1920's. Don't be distracted if the orthography is different, but there is very little in the way of non-Spanish vocabulary there.)
Until WW II, there was a large Sephardic community in Salonika. It was settled directly from Spain, and the language there was still relatively pure. But you know what WW II did to communities like that. Anyway, the largest remaining groups of speakers tend to have a more heavily Turkish-influenced version, so the Medieval Spanish is a little less "out there".
On a separate subject, I'm going to edit your English Wikipedia user page just a hair. (We don't normally encourage such behavior, but I'll think you'll like what I'm going to do.) The visible change will be obvious. The less visible change will give you interwiki links between your English, Dutch and LFN user pages, just like regular articles have such links. (They won't go through Wikidata, but there are other ways to accomplish that.) Your user page here will point to the others, but I can't get them to point back. (Don't ask.) StevenJ81 (talk) 21:30, 22 August 2018 (UTC)Reply