Talk:Wp/grc/Θημών
Latest comment: 14 years ago by Omnipaedista in topic Θημών
Proposed mathematical terminlogy edit
- θετόν-copia-set-σύνολο
- συνθετόν-cocopia-coset-σύμπλοκο
- ὁμάς-grex-group-ομάδα
- δακτύλιος-annulus-ring-δακτύλιος
- πεδίον-corpus-field-σῶμα
Omnipaedista 20:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Χαῖρ’, ὦ φίλε. Ταχυεργίας ἕνεκα μεταβαίνω εἰς τὴν ἀγγλικὴν γλῶσσαν. Well, I'm a bit wondering why you chose to render "copia" as θετόν, which seems not to have this meaning in AGreek. Looks like you have translated Engl. "set" (as a perfect participle) to AGreek. The word that comes quite naturally into mind is of course σύνολον which has been around, I believe, for centuries. True enough, in AGreek, it is attested only as the grammaticalised phrase τὸ σύνολον 'on the whole', but it's scarcely a big leap to resuscitate this word for Wiki-purposes and put it in continuity with NGreek σύνολο. Ἔρρωσο. --Neandros 22:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well-posed argument, Neandre. I haven't been very clear regarding why I chose to translate as θετόν what in Revived Latin is known as Copia. It is true that in AGreek this word meant only "set, put (past participle)", and that the first word that comes effortlessly into one's mind as a semantically appropriate translation, instead, is the adjective σύνολον. Νο, Ι don't have any reservations to attaching a more modern connotation to words that existed in Attic Greek under a very different primary denotation. In fact, I took your suggestion about resuscitating σύνολον seriously, and I wrote an article containing it: Wp/grc/Σύνολον (μαθηματικά). The bottom line of my argument here is that mathematical terminology conventions are quite different from the corresponding conventions in (all?) other fields of knowledge, especially those of Abstract Algebra. The thing is that when this subdiscipline thrived for the first time in the 1850s, Algebraists had to come up with appropriate names for the increasingly abstract structures they were discovering. Of course this was impossible, since natural languages were not meant to describe algebraic structures, at least not up until those times, so there was a kind of “social linguistic contract”, according to which every new notion would be rendered in the Literature by the name of a common everyday notion (the most popular of the new mathematical terms meaning “collection” (Menge, ensemble), “stack” (stack, sheaf), “domain” (domain, region) or “field” (field, champs)). Historically, there were two schools of terminology that emerged, that is the German and the French one. Modern Greek uses the latter because at the time when the discipline of Abstract Algebra (Αφηρημένη Άλγεβρα) was introduced to the Greek Literature in the late 1960s, the prevalent foreign language was French, so for example, set was translated as σύνολο(ν) and that’s the term still in use. Now, when I began to write my first article in AGreek, Wp/grc/Δυϊκότης Ταννάκα-Κρεῖν, I was puzzled about which School to follow; I had to be sure that the it would be the least ambiguous one, since terminological unambiguity seems to be indispensable in Οὐικιπαιδείᾳ, so I created a list (see below) of terms in order to compare them and the German School seemed the least self-contradicting one. Hence, I decided to render all terms using it, ignoring, more or less, the semantic appropriateness which is (ironically) irrelevant in Mathematics, and the tradition of Βικιπαιδιστών and Vicipaedianorum who naturally chose to follow the French one.
Of course, the above "short speech" is not meant to convince anyone about the correctness of my opinion, but just to make clear that translating scientific terms, in general, is a quite tricky "business", since a lot of intricate details have to be taken care of! --Omnipaedista 10:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well-posed argument, Neandre. I haven't been very clear regarding why I chose to translate as θετόν what in Revived Latin is known as Copia. It is true that in AGreek this word meant only "set, put (past participle)", and that the first word that comes effortlessly into one's mind as a semantically appropriate translation, instead, is the adjective σύνολον. Νο, Ι don't have any reservations to attaching a more modern connotation to words that existed in Attic Greek under a very different primary denotation. In fact, I took your suggestion about resuscitating σύνολον seriously, and I wrote an article containing it: Wp/grc/Σύνολον (μαθηματικά). The bottom line of my argument here is that mathematical terminology conventions are quite different from the corresponding conventions in (all?) other fields of knowledge, especially those of Abstract Algebra. The thing is that when this subdiscipline thrived for the first time in the 1850s, Algebraists had to come up with appropriate names for the increasingly abstract structures they were discovering. Of course this was impossible, since natural languages were not meant to describe algebraic structures, at least not up until those times, so there was a kind of “social linguistic contract”, according to which every new notion would be rendered in the Literature by the name of a common everyday notion (the most popular of the new mathematical terms meaning “collection” (Menge, ensemble), “stack” (stack, sheaf), “domain” (domain, region) or “field” (field, champs)). Historically, there were two schools of terminology that emerged, that is the German and the French one. Modern Greek uses the latter because at the time when the discipline of Abstract Algebra (Αφηρημένη Άλγεβρα) was introduced to the Greek Literature in the late 1960s, the prevalent foreign language was French, so for example, set was translated as σύνολο(ν) and that’s the term still in use. Now, when I began to write my first article in AGreek, Wp/grc/Δυϊκότης Ταννάκα-Κρεῖν, I was puzzled about which School to follow; I had to be sure that the it would be the least ambiguous one, since terminological unambiguity seems to be indispensable in Οὐικιπαιδείᾳ, so I created a list (see below) of terms in order to compare them and the German School seemed the least self-contradicting one. Hence, I decided to render all terms using it, ignoring, more or less, the semantic appropriateness which is (ironically) irrelevant in Mathematics, and the tradition of Βικιπαιδιστών and Vicipaedianorum who naturally chose to follow the French one.
Further proposals edit
English (US), French, German, revived Latin (translations mostly done by me), English/French translated (by me again) into revived AGreek, Standard Modern Greek:
- Set | Ensemble, Classe | Menge | Copia | Θημών/Σύνολον | Σύνολο
- Class | Classe | Klasse | Classis | Κλάσσις | Κλάση
- Coset | Classe suivant un sous-groupe, Classe Latérale | Nebenklassen | (Cocopia) | Συνθημών/Συνθετόν(not Σύνθετον)/Συσσύνολον, Συγκλάσσις, Συσσυλογή | Σύμπλοκο
- Group | Groupe | Gruppen | Grex | Ὁμάς | Ομάδα
- Ring | Anneau | Ring | Annulus | Δακτύλιος | Δακτύλιος
- Field | Corps | Körper | Corpus | Πεδίον/Σῶμα | Σώμα
- Scalar Field | Champ scalaire | Skalarfeld | Campus Scalaris | Κλιμακωτὸν Πεδίον | Βαθμωτό Πεδίο
- Stack | Champ | Stack | Campus | Στοιβή | Σωρός, Δέσμη, Πεδίο, Στίβα (Italian: Stiva)
- Bundle | (Faisceau) | Bündel | (Fascis) | Δέσμη | Δέσμη
- Sheaf | Faisceau | Garbe | Fascis | Φορμός, Δράγμα | Δράγμα, Σωρός
- Gerbe | Gerbe (la) | Gerbe | Garba | Σωρός | Σωρός
- Gradient | Gradient(e) | Gradient | Gradiens | Βαθμωτόν | Βαθμωτό
- Variety | Variété | Varietät | Varietàs | Ποικιλότης, Πολλαπλότης | Πολλαπλότητα, Ποικιλία
- Manifold | Variété | Mannigfaltigkeit | (Multiplicatum?) | Πολύπτυχον | Πολλαπλότητα
- Manyfold | (Multivariété) | (Manyfaltigkeit?) | (Polyplicatum?) | Πολλάπτυχον | Πολυπολλαπλότητα
- Supermanifold | Supervariété | Supermannigfaltigkeit | Supermultiplicatum | Σουπερπολύπτυχον | Υπερπολλαπλότητα
- Brane | Brane | Brane | Brana | Βράνη | Βράνη
- Complex | Complexe | Komplex | Complexum | Σύμπλοκον | Σύμπλοκο
- Simplex | Simplexe | Simplex | Simplexum | Ἄπλοκον | Άπλοκο
- Complex Number | Nombre Complexe | Komplexe Zahl | Numerus Complexus | Σύμπλοκος Ἀριθμός | Μιγαδικός Αριθμός
- Collection | Collection | Kolleltion | Collectio | Συλλογή | Σύνολο, Συλλογή
- Ensemble | Ensemble | Ensemble | (Insimulis, Ensemblus?) | Σύνολον | Σύνολο
- Idèle | Idèle (le) | Idel | Idel-us/-um | Ἰδέλιον | Ιντέλ
- Étale (Hiragana: エタール|Etāru) | Étale | Etal | (Stallicus, Etalicus) | Νηνεμικός | Ετάλ
- Family | Famille | Familie | Familia | Οἰκογένεια, Γενεά | Οικογένεια
- Nerve | Nerve, Nerf | Nerv | Nervus | Νεῦρον | Νεύρο
- Scheme | Schème | Schema | Schema | Σχῆμα | Σχήμα
- Fiber | Fibre (la) | Faser | Fibra | Ἴς | Ίνα, Νήμα
- Neighborhood | Voisinage | Umgebung | Vicinitàs | Γειτνία | Γειτονία
- Threshold | Seuil (le) | Schwelle (die) | Οὐδός | Κατώφλι
- Contragredient | Contragredient(e) | Contragredient | Contragrediens | Ἀντιβαθμωτικός | Αντιβαθμωτικός
- Domain [=Universe of Discourse] | Domaine (le) | Domäne (das) | Dominium | Πεδίον | Πεδίο
- Domain [of Definition] | Ensemble de Définition | Definitionsbereich, Definitionsmenge | Dominium Definitionis | Πεδίον Ὁρισμοῦ | Πεδίο Ορισμού
- Domain [Ring-theoretic] | Domaine (le) | Domäne (das) | Dominium | Πεδίον/Περιοχή | Περιοχή
- Region | Région | Gebiet (das) | (Regio?) | (Ἐπικράτεια?) | Περιοχή
- Covering | Revêtement | Überlagerung | Coopertio | Κάλυψις | Κάλυψη
- Map (Dutch: Afbeelding) | Application? | Abbildnung | Mappa | Ἀπεικόνημα | Απεικόνηση
- Embedding | Plongement | Einbettung | Imbutio | Ἐμβύθισις | Εμβάπτισμα
- Chart | Charte (ls) | Karte (die) | Carta | Χάρτης | Χάρτης
- Atlas | Atlas | Atlas | Atlas | Ἄτλας | Άτλαντας
- Gauge | Jauge (la) | Eich | (Galga?) | Βαθμίς | Βαθμίδα
- Stalk | Tige (la) | Halm (der) | (Tibia?) | Μίσχος | Μίσχος
- Germ | Germe (le) | Keim (der) | Germen | Σπέρμα | Σπόρος
- Flabby Presheaf | le Préfaisceau Flasque | die Schlaff Prägarbe | Praefascis Flaccidus | Πλαδαρὸς Παρόσφορμος (Aeolic: παρός (prae)) | Πλαδαρός Προσωρός
- pro/prae/post/meta/semi/hemi | pro/pré/post/méta/sémi/hémi | pro/prä/post/meta/semi/hemi | pro/prae/post/meta/semi/hemi | προ/παρός/πεδά/μετά/σημί|ἡμί/ἡμί | προ/προ/μετά/μετά/ημί/ημί
- super/hyper/trans/supra/ultra | super/hyper/trans/supra/ultra |super/hyper/trans/supra/ultra | super/hyper/trans/supra/ultra | συπέρ/ὑπέρ/ὑπερδιά/ὑπέρ/ὑπέρ | υπέρ|σούπερ/υπέρ/υπέρ/υπέρ/υπέρ|ούλτρα
- up to/down to | (à (quelque chose) près/jusque près?) | (oben nach/runter nach?) | (ex/ad?) | ἐξ/ἕως | από/μέχρι
- Semigroupoid | Sémigroupoide | Semigroupoide | Semigregoide|s,i | Ἡμιομαδοειδές | Ημιομαδοειδές
- Sexy Prime | Premier Sexy | Sexy Primzahl | Primus Sexius | Ἕξιος Πρῶτος | Σέξι Πρώτος
- Squag | Squag | Squag | Squagum | Σκουάγιον | Σκουάγκ
- Sloop | Sloop | Sloop | Slupum | Σλούπιον | Σλουπ
- Quark | Quark | Quark | Quarkum | Κουάρκιον | Κουάρκ
- Magma | Magma | Magma | Magma | Μάγμα | Μάγμα
- Affine | Affine | Affiner | Affinis | Ὁμοπαράλληλος | Αφφινικός, Ομοπαράλληλικός
- Spinor | Spineur | Spinor | Turbor | Στρόφωρ | Σπίνορας
- Flow | écoulement | Fluss (das), Fließen (das) | (Fluxio?) | Ῥοή | Ροή
- Fluxion | Fluxion (la) | Fluxion | Fluxio | Ῥεῦσις | Ροή
- Flux | Flux (le) | Fluss (der) | Fluxum | Ῥεῦμα | Ρεύμα
- Current | Courant | Strom | Fluxio | (Ῥέον?) | Ρεύμα
- Torsion | Torsion | Torsion | Torsio | Στρέψις | Στρέψη
- Torsion Field | Champs de Torsion | Torsionfeld | Campus Torsionis | Πεδίον Στρέψεως | Πεδίο Στρέψης (Russian: Торсионные Поля)
- Torsor | Torseur | Torsor | Torsor | Στρέψωρ | Τόρσορας
- Vector | Vecteur | Vektor | Vector | Ἀνύστωρ | Διάνυσμα, Άνυσμα
- Tensor | Tenseur | Tensor | Tensor | Τανύστωρ | Τανυστής
- Holor | Holeur | Holor | Holor | Ὅλωρ | Όλορας
- Unity | Unité | Einheit | Unitàs | Μονότης | Μονάδα
- Infinity | Infini | Unendlichkeit | Infinitàs | Ἀπειρότης | Άπειρο
- Category-theoretical Triple | Monade, Triade, Construction Fondamentale/Standard | Monade | Mona|s,dis | Μονάς | Μονάδα
- Topos | Topos (le) | Topos | Top-os/-us | Τόπος | Τόπος
- Category-theoretical Model | Modèle | Modell | Modelum | Πρότυπον | Πρότυπο, Μοντέλο
- Category-theoretical Theory [sic] | Théorie | Theorie | Theoría | θεωρία | θεωρία
- Category | Catégorie | Kategorie | Categoría | Κατηγορία | Κατηγορία
- Allegory | Allégorie | Allegorie | Allegoría | Ἀλληγορία | Αλληγορία
- Topos-theoretical Cosmos | Cosmos | Kosmos | Cosm-os/-us | Κόσμος | Κόσμος
- Category-theoretical Universe [mathematics] | Univers | Universum | Universum | (Ἑνότρεπτον?), Σύμπαν | Σύμπαν
- Sieve | Crible (le) | Sieb (das) | Cribrum | Κόσκινον | Κόσκινο
- Crible, Category-theoretical Sieve | Crible (le), Criblerq | Sieb | Cribellum | Κοσκίνιον | Κόσκινο
- Screening [Interaction] | Écrant(e)|age (Italian: Scherma|to,ggio) | Schirm (das) | (Scermatio?) | Κεκοσκινισμ|ένος,α | Κοσκινισμ|ένος,α
- Shielding | Blindage | Abschirmung | (Θωράκισις?) | Θωράκιση
- Rank | Rang (le) | Rang | (Rangus?) | Βαθμός | Βαθμός
- Order | Ordre | Ordnung | Ordus | Τάξις | Τάξη
- Norm | Norme | Norm | Norma | (Κανών, Νορμή?) | Νόρμα
- Echelon | Échelon | Stufe, Treppe | Scala | Κλῖμαξ | Επίπεδο, Κλίμακα (Polish: Schody)
- Matrix | Matrice | Matrix | Matrix | Μήτρα | Πίνακας
- Composite Number | Nombre Composé | Zusammengesetzte Zahl | Numerus Compositus | Σύνθετος Ἀριθμός | Σύνθετος Αριθμός
- Surreal Number | Nombre Surréel | Surreale Zahl | Numerus Surrealis|Sursumrealis | Ὀναπραγματικὸς Ἀριθμός (Aeolic: ὄν, ὄνα (upon)) | Σουρρεαλιστικός Αριθμός
- Net | Réseau (le) | Netz | Rete | Δίκτυον | Δίκτυο
- Period | Période (la) | Période (die) | Periodus | Περίοδος | Περίοδος
- Ideal | Idéal | Ideal (das) | (Subcopia) Idealis | Ἰδεώδες | Ιδεώδες
- Module | Module (le) | Modul | Modulum | Ἄρθρον, (Μόδιον?) | Μόδιο
- Modulus | Modulus (le) | Modulus | Modulus | (Μέτρον?) | Μέτρο, Μόδιο
- Modular [Form/Function] | Forme/Application Modulaire | Modular-form/funktion | Forma/Functio Modularis | (Τροπαρικὴ Μορφή/Συνάρτησις|Τέλεσις?) | Μετρική|Μοδιακή Μορφή/Συνάρτηση
- Metric [Distance] | Metrique (la) | Metricher (Raum) | Metrica | Μετρική | Μετρική
- Operator | Opérateur | Operator | Operator | Τελεστής | Τελεστής
- Poset | po-Ensemble | ho-Menge | Pocopia | μδ-Σύνθετον/μδ-Σύνολον | μδ-Σύνολο
- Multiverse [Mathematical Modeling] | Multivers | Multiversum | Multiversum | Πολύτρεπτον | Πολυσύμπαν
- Omniverse [Mathematical Modeling] | Omnivers | Omniversum | Omniversum | Παντότρεπτον | (Παντοσύμπαν?)
- BIon | BIon | BIon | ΒΙόνιον | ΜπΙόνιο
- Dressing [of an operator] | Habillé, Vêtu | Kleidung (die)|Bekleidet | (Vestatio?) | Εἷμα, Ἔνδυσις | Ντύμα, Ένδυσις
- Action | Action | Wirkung | Actio | Δρᾶσις | Δράση
A list to be completed... It would be nice if I could translate it to Sanskrit, Gothic, and Old Church Slavonic, as well! (As for the coset, you can see that its AGreek rendering is much more elegant if one chooses to translate the English term literally; you can also see that in almost all cases only English and AGreek don't have the same word for different notions) Note: only the Set and the Field coincide in French & German, since they are the oldest mathematical notions of the list.
For avoiding loanwords and loan affixes edit
I suggest if there is lack of words or affixes for build neologisms for exacts concepts, try to use the others greeks dialects (aeolian, etc), koine and posterior literature (byzantine, katharevousa, etc). the nab is all of the new ones continue being "ancient greek" (pure as it were possible. with its semantic preserved).
Maybe mycenaean greek
- Update: the above argument has been resolved. The only prefix from Latin allowed was σύπερ-. Also, there have been some revived dialectal Greek prepositions such as πέδα (to gloss post), πάρος (to gloss trans), ὄνα (to gloss sur), ἀπύ (to gloss de-) that have been proposed by me for use in mathematical articles. --Omnipaedista 15:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Θημών edit
In the first version of the article I was looking for a word that had the root of τίθημι and meant "heap, mass, collection". At first I tried to literally gloss the English "set" as θετόν but this was ambiguous, since this word mainly glosses the Latin positum. Then, it occured to me that there was a less ambiguous word having the traits I was looking for: θημών - θημῶνος. --Omnipaedista 15:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)