Incubator:Administrators noticeboard/Archive/2023

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Wp/mni-beng as a test wiki

I want to start a new test wiki for Meitei language alias Manipuri language (ISO code: mni) but in Bengali script (ISO code: Beng). Earlier, Meitei language wikipedia (mni.wiki) was successfully approved as a wikipedia from here. But it's written in Meitei script (ISO code: Mtei). Since mni wiki (in Mtei script) already exist, may I be given the permission to create a test wiki with a prefix "Wp/mni-beng" or "Wp/mni-Beng" (a combination of ISO codes of mni language and beng script)? Important to note is that Meitei language is widely written in Bengali script in Bangladesh as well as India despite the revival of Meitei script. Both Mtei script and Beng script are official scripts for mni language in Manipur. Bengali script is still used in (1) Indian Prime Minister's Office for writing Meitei language, (2) Vikaspedia (Government of India's agriculture encyclopedia), (3) Manipur Government's official websites (other than English) and in various newspapers too. I tried to create a page with the very prefix but it's not possible, as a notice box appeared saying it's wrong prefix or if not, I should request to admins to allow the prefix to be unblocked from the auto-block. Haoreima (talk) 10:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Ideally, both scripts should be used in one wiki. Is it maybe possible to add a script converter on mniwiki? --MF-W {a, b} 14:44, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

MF-W Sir! We don't have that mechanism as of now. Plus, the Bengali script using Meitei language has heavy Bangladeshi accent, vocabulary, style that it can be considered as a separate dialect in some case. Even the Ethnologue stated this fact. For that, we also have w:Bangladeshi Meitei language. The Punjabi wikipedia has two, one in Gurmukhi script (pa wiki) and the other in Shahmukhi script (pnb wiki). Just like Chinese wikis have zh wiki, zh-classical, etc, is it possible to allow us to start a test wiki? --Haoreima (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

MF-W The Meitei script using Meitei language is usually linguistically pure or attempts not to add loanwords most of the time. It even have w:Meitei linguistic purism movement. So, I believe that the two could be considered separate. Even in Google Translate, two sections are planned to be added for Meitei language, first one is already added called "Manipuri (Meiteilon)" whose code they set as "mni-Mtei" and the remaining one is in its Beta version (soon to be publicised) and is "mni-Beng". --Haoreima (talk)

There is functionality in the MediaWiki software to support multiple scripts where they are both phonetic - used on a number of Indic language Wikis. I'm not sure what the limitations are, but it might be worth investigating. Rich Farmbrough (talk) 21:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@Haoreima: Probably this issue is accounted by Phabricator T357853? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226@MF-Warburg@Rich Farmbrough Thank you but I am not experienced about Phabricator. And also please tell me what should I do further for this process? Haoreima (talk) 06:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Montenegrin Wikimedia Incubator

I want to contribute to the Wikimedia Incubator for Montenegrin, but the creation of new test articles in the Incubator is disabled. I am not discussing the eligibility of a Wikipedia in Montenegrin, only the possibility of creating new test articles in the Incubator since one of the premises in the 5th request for Montenegrin is that it needs to have active contribution, but we cannot contribute when the creation of new test articles in the Incubator is disabled. Can somebody enable the creation of new test articles in the Wp/cnr/Početna stranica? @MF-Warburg purposefully ignored my question on his talk page and didn't answer it even after five days, but he responded to everybody else on the same day they posed their question. Plus, he edited this page 21 hours ago which proves he is active. I don't think he is being professional in doing his job here. He's been on Wikipedia for 17 years, maybe it's time for him to retire and somebody else to step in his place. He has a habit of ignoring people's questions which makes him totally unfit for an admin. In February of 2023, two users asked him very politely to further clarify and justify his claim that Montenegrin "is not recognized as eligible" for a test Wikimedia Incubator. He very rudely ignored both of their questions, but he has replied to all later questions on different subjects to other users, usually on the same day they asked them. He also failed to respond to @Syunsyunminmin who asked very concisely, after laying out all Wikipedian principles she is aware of, whether she is missing some information as to why the Incubator for Montenegrin is disabled. He failed to reply to user @Liuxinyu970226 on multiple occasions. This gives me reasonable doubt to conclude that he is not professional in fulfilling his task here, so I will inquire into where I can report him to have him removed from his position. I would love if somebody could give me a proper answer to my question about the Montenegrin Wikimedia Incubator and why is it disabled? It's a test wiki and we should be allowed to create test articles in order to increase the likelihood of having a real wikipedia one day. Thank you in advance. Blu145 (talk) 09:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for describing my response speed in such a positive way, which I feel is not deserved. - The creation of pages is blocked for all ineligible language codes. Montenegrin is currently not recognized as eligible, because the language committee has not found it to be "sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language." (as the m:LPP says). --MF-W {a, b} 13:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The description is perfectly accurate and deserved and if I didn't write that I'm gonna report you, you would probably ignore this post as well. But I don't see where do you pull the information that Montenegrin is officially considered "not eligible". That may be your subjective opinion but the 5th Montenegrin request is still open and has lots of support. In fact, most of the opposition comes from Serbs. And you didn't even read my question, I asked about enabling test articles on the Incubator, I didn't ask why is there no Wikipedia in Montenegrin. But even if a Montenegrin wikipedia never sees the light of day, some changes will have to happen. The false, non-existent 19th century German invention called "Serbo-Croatian" that 0,2% claim as their mother tongue in all four countries today has a Wikipedia, and it's basically a Croatian Wikipedia 2.0, and all other three standards that are also "not sufficiently unique that they could not coexist on a more general wiki" have their own separate wikipedias. Montenegrin is in fact orthographically the most unique of the four because it has additional two letters. So either all of them are gonna merge into one, or we are eventually going to have our own Wikipedia. I still don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to at least write articles in the Incubator. 62.4.55.104 13:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Well dear all above, I'm afraid the biggest matter that why Montenegrin can't be considered an eligible language for Incubator to test, is due to this meta assessment page: Croatian Wikipedia Disinformation Assessment-2021, especially its 3rd suggestion:

“

Encouraging the affected communities to discuss the possibility of re-merging Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian language projects into the original Serbo-Croatian language projects to re-align with the practices of other pluricentric languages with unified Wikipedia projects; including but not limited to Chinese, English, German, Spanish, Tamil, Korean, and French language Wikipedias.

”

@editors of that meta page: NNair (WMF), MNadzikiewicz (WMF), Xeno (WMF), Ainali, Minorax, Morneo06, DerHexer, Whym, Quisqualis and GeneralNotability: Is this suggestion also affects Montenegrin, so that Montenegrin contents should also be considered to merge into the existing Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:53, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I am perfectly fine with just one Wikipedia existing for all four standards of the same pluricentric BCMS language. But I consider it very wrong for three standards to have their own wikipedia, and a fourth common Serbo-Croatian wikipedia to exist, but not a Montenegrin one. There are literally no differences, zero, between Bosnian and ijekavian Serbian. In Montenegrin you at least have iotated forms with ś and ź and radically different syntax. But it's still all the same language. And it's very unprofessional of admins to have double standards for different languages. Bosnian is perfectly eligible to have it's own wikipedia, and Croatian and Serbian too, even though they are far from being sufficiently unique, but then for Montenegrin all of a sudden we have the strictest policy. I think the best solution is to have just one wikipedia in two scripts, Latin and Cyrilic, where forms of every standard will be acceptable, depending on who is writing the material. Also, this would be a huge improvement in article quality, since Serbian and Croatian editors would now have to reach a consensus on certain grounds and supply their claims with actual references, especially when it comes to writing articles on history and historical figures. The other solution would be to transform the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia into the Montenegrin one, but again that wouldn't be fair to all the other languages that have perhaps even bigger regional differences but don't have separate wikipedias. But if no one ever merges the Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian wikipedia into one, then we need to have a Wikipedia for the Montenegrin standard as well. 62.4.55.104 05:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

" Montenegrin is currently not recognized as eligible, because the language committee has not found it to be "sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki.

There are Serbo-Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian Wikipedias. What is their sufficient uniqueness compared to each other and Montenegrin? Millodarka (talk) 11:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Millodarka Isn't this question answered at [1] which I also posted this link to your talk page? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:44, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226. After you informed me about the initiative to delete the test project, I tried to join the discussion, but my post was not approved (or refused because I never got the follow-up on this one: “Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision.”).

So, no. My questions about the way Montenegrin test Wikipedia is being handled (why, when, on what rule and whose decision adding articles is disabled with the incorrect warning of language not having proper code, for example) are not nearly answered.

In the past year, I have learned not to expect any explanation, so this was more my failure to resist the urge to point out an obvious discrimination than to try to get an answer. I'm apologizing about it, and I want to thank you for your attempt to help. Millodarka (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I completely don't understand why it is possible to edit the Montenegrin Wikipedia but not to create new articles. It's frustrating, because it's something you find out only AFTER writing a new article and trying to save it. It's nowhere written that new articles can't be written and the main page even invites people to write them. Besides, what's the point of having an encyclopedia that can be edited but not expanded? Someone writes here that this is because the language is not eligible. Okay, fair deal. But if that is the case, why is it possible to create new articles in other languages that are not eligible (Ancient Greek, Arberësht), but not in Montenegrin? Especially because the request page itself writes: "That said, a sufficiently active and robust test project must be built in Incubator before any test in Montenegrin would approved for creation as an independent wiki. So please contribute to that test at incubator:Wp/cnr." Svjetionik (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

For the record, this problem has once again accounted at langcom's mailing list, pending response. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Copy request - Wy/ar

Hello, can you "please" copy this page into following respective page:

• en:voy:MediaWiki:Common.js → MediaWiki:Wy/ar/Common.js

--Mohanad (talk) 14:48, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Jon Harald Søby Excuse me for mention you, can you help me with that? --Mohanad (talk) 13:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@Mohanad: Hi, sorry about the late reply (and happy new year).

I can do that, but I'm not a big fan of just uncritically copying everything from one wiki's Common.js to another. Doing that in this case would lead to, amongst other things, a lot of English Wikivoyage-specific templates being added to the interface for the Arabic Wikivoyage (templates like voy:en:Template:See and voy:en:Template:Do), and inclusion of a different script when you visit the watchlist.

My point is: What parts of that page do you think would actually be useful for the Arabic test Wikivoyage? Jon Harald Søby (talk) 08:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

THx @Jon Harald Søby (and happy new year), the most important function is this, I agree with you, I just didn't want to bother you with repeated requests whenever I need something --Mohanad (talk) 21:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jon Harald Søby can you please just copy "proportionalResize() function"? --Mohanad (talk) 13:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@MF-Warburg Sorry for mention, can you help, please? -Mohanad (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I think Jon Harald Søby is more knowledgable than me in this area. --MF-W {a, b} 23:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mohanad: Done for the proportionalResize bit, sorry it took me so long! Jon Harald Søby (talk) 09:35, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Can't create a page on test wikipedia incubator

I cannot create a page in Pre-reform Russian orthography with valid ISO code (orv). What is wrong with it? Let me know. Flippysketch2019 (talk) 11:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree with you 194.146.191.126 15:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

orv cannot be created because it is a Historical language[2] and has been rejected by langcom. Syunsyunminmin (talk) 15:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

So, how could I make a test wikipedia in incubator (which ISO-639 code) using pre-reform Russian orthography (from 18 century)? I tried all my best asking for it Flippysketch2019 (talk) 19:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Except for Wikisource, wikis for extinct languages cannot be created. Syunsyunminmin (talk) 03:53, 1 January 2024 (UTC)