Anderssakoul

Tira n Tmazight

Thank you Anderssakoul for your input.

I agree with most of what you said on vacabulary.

However, I don't think that writing the schwa "e" facilitates Amazigh pronunciation at all. Sometimes, writing the schwa leads to complications for those who are trying to learn Tamazight. For example:

Kabylians prefer to write azref instead of azrf.

The plural becomes izerfan (and not izrefan) (did you notice the shift the schwa?). This instability of the schwa leads to confusion for the fresh learner.

Whilst if we write azrf and izrfan it's much easier to pronounce and to write (espeacially for children who are learning the language).

Not writing the schwa does not mean that it doesn't exist. It's just easier and more economic not to write it.

NB: The schwa has no phonological value in northern Amazigh varieties.

When it comes to the gh and ɣ issue, I prefer gh because it's a knowm Latin combination. The ɣ / Γ is a Greek letter unknown to the public!

Why use a Greek letter when we have plenty of easy alternatives in the Latin script??

If we use ɣ for academic reasons then why not use the rest of IPA international standards to write Tamazight ??

Why not use ʃ instead of c ?

Why not use dˤ instead of ḍ ?

I think that the easiest way is to write:

Amazigh instead of Amaziɣ

Mummd bn Âli Amkraz instead of Muḥemmed ben Ɛli Amekraz.

If we want to use the Latin international alphabet for Tamazight, we should exploit it well, and we should keep it simple.

--Aryaz 17:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi aryaz,

Writers in different zones can write the 'e' wherever makes sense for them. Yes, the schwa moves depending on affixes on the word etc, and it's not phonemic. But: its behaviour is consistent in each region, even if the rules for inserting the schwa differ from place to place. (There seem to be 3 major rule systems in use) It facilitates learning because it shows the syllabic structure more clearly (except for Chleuh, where it's arguable).

The point where concensus on 'e' rules would need to emerge would be for a converged Berber form.

For the other letters I'd go with literary convention for normal writing, while allowing pragmatic use of 'gh' etc for SMS etc. As I said, I use that all the time. It's not a huge step for people to learn the extra letters. After all, you're happy with ḥ instead of h'. For sure it's less hassle than learning Tifinaɣ ;-) (I'm a big big fan of Tifinaɣ, by the way) Anderssakoul 17:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Tira

And I am big fan of Tifinagh too.

I don't think that "gh" is only for SMS or Twitter. I think it's a very easy and popular letter combination among Imazighn. Why ignore it, and import the Greek "ɣ" which nobody really knows.

The majority of Imazighn prefer "gh", why alienate them?

I don't see how "e" facilitates learning Tamazight.

What's the difficulty in reading the words azrf, acnyal, smmus, amddukl, acffar, aslmd ?

Besides, it economizes space and typing time.

There is no pan-Amazigh consensus on writing the schwa. There is only a Kabylian consensus among Kabylian linguists and writers.

IRCAM in Morocco doesn't write "e" as you know.

However, there are some cases where writing "e" is very useful and important:

expamles: imqqranen, imẓẓyanen, tilelli, ... etc.

(IRCAM adopts this methodology too.)

--Aryaz 19:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Schwa

No, economizing space is not the primary reason of course.

Although, schwa is present in almost every Amazigh word, unlike "gh".

--Aryaz 21:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Azul

So are you active in any Amazigh Wikipedia project? I am looking for contributors to the Tarifit Wikipedia project.

And what is your dialectal background?

--Aryaz 13:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not Berber although I can read some Kabyle and a little of other flavours like Chleuh. I've spent a long time living in North Africa and learned about the phonology and the writing systems. Mainly I concentrate on creating Berber software tools and organising localization and contributions - in Wikipedia I just mop the floor sometimes. I've gained a strong sense of the unity of the language flavours and scripts, and that's why I think that the concensus on writing so far is a great achievement (both for Tifinagh and Latin) and that maintaining that momentum is important, to keep people contributing, and ultimately perhaps to crystallize a new, converged literary form. You're right that it's important to keep writing and I admire your commitment. (I can be mailed also by the address on the akufi site). Anderssakoul 14:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Literature on wiki

One thing that I think would be immensely useful for the Rifian wiki. I bought some literature in Tarifit while visiting the Rif, and I later found that in Kabylie the authors (and the region itself) are not well known. It would be brilliant to have profiles of authors writing in Rifian, and pages on their main works. Also, there are a couple of books that would be great first candidates to have translated into Kabyle - the interest in literature is very high there. What do you think? Any suggestions? Anderssakoul 15:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Tamazight

Berber software and tools.. Tamazight could really use some of that. Tamazight is practically invisible in the digital world. So there is a lot of work to do in this field.

I don't see any consensus on writing Tamazight. I mean.. Morocco is heading in one direction with the Tifinagh script, while Algeria is undecided, the activists and linguists favor the Latin script, while the general North African population is powerless as Tamazight isn't a real part of the educational system.

The real change and the crystallization of Tamazight will come out of the accumulation of Amazigh literary works.

The cultural exchange between the Rif and Kabylia is null unfortunately. Riffians don't have such a big literary and cultural output, until recently. Kabylians have produced a lot but they are very closed on themselves, they often see Taqbaylit as a separate language from the rest of pan-Tamazight and this is sometimes fueled by the political autonomy movement there. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't know anything about the geography or the history of the Rif let alone Riffian Amazigh writers.

I will try to make some pages on the Tarifit test Wikipedia on Rif-Amazigh writers. The idea of intra-Amazigh translations of literary works is great too. It could bring the Amazigh dialects closer together. But this needs a lot of cooperation.

Our problem, us the Berbers, is that we're not good in cooperating. We're very much individualistic, through our history.

What books did you buy in the Rif? and what places did you see?

You can mail me on: tussna@gmail.com

--Aryaz 01:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Tifinagh

I already have and use Tifinagh-IRCAM, but the Akufi works great too. I like the feature of switching to Tifinagh through caps lock.

--Aryaz 10:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Testword2 ɣɣɣ