Talk:Wp/cop/Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ

ⲛⲉⲛⲑⲱϣ `ⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ (The governorates of Egypt)

Before constructing a new name for a governorate, please checkout this list first: en:List of Coptic place names to see if it has an ancient name. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 09:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Qalyubia

We have a number of options for translating Al-Qalyubia governorate.

• Use the ancient Egyptian name for the district (nome): Ka-Ka'm (كام كم). See Nome (Egypt) or مقاطعات مصر القديمة.
• Use the ancient Egyptian name for the district's capital: Hut-hery-ib (حوت حر إب) which nowadays is near Banha.
• Use the Coptic name (أتريب أوتل أتريب): which seems to be derived from the Greek word Athribis (could be the opposite, or both from Assyrian; not sure). See Athribis or أتريب.
  • Not sure if it was written as ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ ⲟⲩⲑⲁⲗ ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ or not (could not find the Coptic word). May be we can just use ⲟⲩⲑⲁⲗ ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ.
• Use the Coptic name for Banha: ⲡⲁⲛⲁϩⲟ. i.e., ⲡⲓⲑⲱϣ `ⲙⲡⲁⲛⲁϩⲟ.
• Derive from the Arabic name: e.g., ⲭⲁⲗⲓⲱⲫⲓⲁ.

Suggestions are welcome. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 06:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Addendum, I noticed that the Arabic month Thou al-qaada in Coptic (which was derived from Greek) is ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲟⲥ. The word ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲟⲥ might be a direct translation from the Arabic word qaada (قاعدة). Also, the ancient Egyptian name (according to محافظة القليوبية) for the governorate (Hut-hery-ib) means قلعه وسط الأرض or قاعدة وسط الأرض. Hence, the word ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ could be related to the ancient Egyptian name Hut-hery-ib. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 06:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The name Qalyubia comes from the town Qalyub. So, actually, محافظة القليوبية means something like "Qalyubian Governorate". Qalyub is attested in Coptic as ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲃⲉ, ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲉ and ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲓ. ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲓ is the Bohairic variant. The title in the wikipedia for the governorate should therefore be ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲓ (ⲑⲱϣ).

Indeed, you are right. I was able to find references for the name ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲉ. However, I have a question for you. Do you know if the word Qalyub itself was originally an Arabic word then found its way into Coptic as ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲓ (due to Arab conquest), or it's the other way around? Thanks ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 15:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Athribis (there are several Athribis, which have a different etymology, one comes from the deity Repyt (ⲣⲓⲫⲓ)). Given the fact that we know the Hieroglyphic writing Ḥwt-(t3)-ḥrj-jb, the Greek one (which is just the Hellenized Demotic pronunciation), a cuneiform Ḫatḫariba and the Arabic Atrib, it is very probable that the Coptic name is (Sahidic rather) ϩⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ and (Bohairic rather) ⲁⲑⲣⲓⲃ. But I wouldn't take it as the name for the governorate. I would take the town which is the basis also for the Arabic name of the governorate. The reason is, think if governorates are newly created and Athrib would be used for a governorate "Atribia", what would we do in Coptic? This would be a problem. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21 September 2017

You are right about using the town which is the basis for the Arabic name (specially if the name is attested in Coptic), but in this particular case, we also have the option of using the ancient Egyptian name for the whole district/nome (the ancient Egyptian administrative division which is similar to today's governorates). I do not have any issues with using the name ⲕⲁⲗⲓⲱⲡⲓ, though. The point is that in the absence of an attested Coptic word, I prefer to use an ancient Egyptian name second. Then, Arabic and Greek lastly. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 15:27, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The problem with Ka-Khem (or similar) is, that I don't know how it is written in hieroglyphs so that i can imagine what the (Ancient) Egyptian pronunciation was, so that we can reconstruct the Coptic one. So far, it's a bit too hypothetical. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21 September 2017

Beheira

Should we translate it to a Coptic word that means lake, or use one of its ancient cities like Rosetta (ⲣⲁϣⲓⲧ) which was a governorate by itself before or Damanhur (ⲧⲙⲉⲛϩⲱⲣ) or Edku (ⲧⲕⲱⲟⲩ)? --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 17:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

We could translate Beheira with ϣⲏⲓ. I also think we could use ϯⲙⲓⲛϩⲱⲣ, as it is the capital - but again, in Arabic Damanhur only refers to the city, not the governorate. But.. Well.. If you don't like ϣⲏⲓ, we can use ϯⲙⲓⲛϩⲱⲣ. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22 September 2017

We could also use ⲑⲁⲗⲁⲥⲥⲁ or ⲗⲁⲕⲕⲟⲥ to translate Beheira. Do you really want to use Damanhur as the name of the governorate if it is only the name of a city? --بطرس مرقس

For me it doesn't make a big difference if we use ⲑⲁⲗⲁⲥⲥⲁ or ⲗⲁⲕⲕⲟⲥ or ϣⲏⲓ. The only difference is that the last one is Egyptian and the former two ones are Greek but they are used as normal words of the Coptic vocabulary so I don't care. Maybe ⲗⲁⲕⲕⲟⲥ or ϣⲏⲓ would be better than ⲑⲁⲗⲁⲥⲥⲁ. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22 September 2017

ϯⲙⲁⲕⲙⲉⲕ ϫⲉ ϣⲏ (ⲑⲱϣ) ⲡⲉ ⲟⲩϣⲉϫⲓ `ⲛⲗⲉⲙⲛⲕⲏⲙⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲗⲛⲟⲩϥⲗⲓ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲡϩⲉⲣⲁ. ⲛⲡⲓⲥϩⲉ `ⲛϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲗⲟⲗ šy / še (=ϣⲏ) ⲡⲉ ⲑⲁⲗⲁⲥⲥⲁ (lake) ⲁⲗⲗⲁ šy.t (= ϣⲏⲓ) ⲡⲉ ⲗⲁⲕⲕⲟⲥ (cistern, well) --ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ

Kafr El Sheikh

• ⲡⲓϣⲙⲟⲩⲣ (Bashmur)
• Denqiun
• دميلقون
• دنقيون

Which one to go for? --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 00:12, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

هاني القبطي translated it as ϯⲙⲓⲛϣⲁⲓϧ which I think is a good solution as it is built like an old Coptic place name would have been created, and it is a exact translation of Arabic. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22 September 2017

Thanks ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ. If we would go for an exact translation from Arabic, would not ϯⲙⲓⲛϧⲉⲗⲗⲟ be better? --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 00:57, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

ϯⲙⲓⲛϧⲉⲗⲗⲟ is very good idea! --ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ

I just can agree. ϧⲉⲗⲗⲟ is a nice translation of ϣⲁⲓϧ --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) ϧⲉⲛ ⲥⲟⲩ ⲟⲩⲁⲓ `ⲛⲟⲕⲧⲱⲃⲣⲓⲟⲥ

Sohag

• ⲉⲃⲱⲧ - Abydos
  • (ꜣbdw or AbDw)
• ϣⲙⲓⲛ - Akhmim
• ⲥⲟⲩϩⲁϫ

What should we pick for Sohag? I prefer ⲉⲃⲱⲧ or ⲥⲟⲩϩⲁϫ. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 00:37, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I would use ⲥⲟⲩϩⲁϫ. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22 September 2017

Dakahlia

The name of Daqahla, the place where the governorate got its name from, is ⲧⲭⲉϩⲗⲓ. See 'Das christlich-koptische Ägypten in arabischer Zeit'. So the name of the governorate should be ⲧⲭⲉϩⲗⲓ (ⲑⲱϣ). --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 9 October 2017

"Officially"

I've used ⲉⲡⲓⲥⲟⲙⲟⲛ for officially (although i know it's not the literal translation) because sometimes it's used in this sense, for example in so called "Susanna's will" (papyrus from Djeme monastery). --Bloomaround (talk) 11:05, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

ⲉⲡⲓⲥⲟⲙⲟⲛsounds Greek to me (please correct me if I'm wrong). Here we try to use Coptic words as possible (unless we do not have a Coptic equivalent). I remember using the word ⲉⲧⲉⲛϩⲟⲧ for official (Template_talk:Wp/cop/Infobox_country#Language_(ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ)). --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 14:51, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Your aversion against Greek is ridiculous. Please accept the fact that there are many Greek words in Coptic and ⲉⲡⲓⲥⲟⲙⲟⲛ is one of them. However I thought it means public. Ψενανουβισ (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I think, I was pretty clear with what I meant. If we have a Coptic word that gives a similar meaning to a Greek one, the Coptic must be used. Unless of course it is of a religious use. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 17:54, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

You're right, ⲡⲓⲣⲁⲛ ⲉⲧⲉⲛϩⲟⲧ looks much better. Thank you. --Bloomaround (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I changed it now. Keep in mind that Arab is either ⲁⲣⲁⲃⲟⲥ (like ⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ) or ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲁⲣⲁⲃⲓⲁ (same pattern as ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ). Information about the official name and the Arabic name we could also shift to ⲡⲓⲣⲉⲛⲑⲟ - the section about the country name. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 21:21, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

ⲧⲓⲥⲧⲟⲣⲓⲁ

ⲟⲩⲟⲛⲧⲉ ⲁⲡⲟⲇⲉⲝⲓⲥ `ⲛⲡⲉⲧⲣⲁϥⲟⲧϩ ⲡⲁⲣⲁ ⲛⲓⲛⲁⲃⲁⲑⲙⲟⲥ `ⲛⲫⲓⲁⲣⲟ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡⲉⲣⲓⲟⲭⲏ `ⲛϣⲁϥⲉ. ϧⲉⲛ 10 `ⲛϣⲟ ⲉⲙⲑⲟ `ⲙⲡϭⲟⲓⲥ ⲁⲩⲉⲣ ϣⲉⲃⲓⲱ ⲟⲩⲕⲟⲩⲗⲧⲟⲩⲣⲁ `ⲛϫⲉⲣⲏϫ-ⲣⲉϥⲱⲗⲓ ⲛⲉⲙ `ⲙⲃⲟϩⲓ `ⲛⲕⲟⲩⲗⲧⲟⲩⲣⲁ `ⲛϣⲃⲓⲛ-ⲛⲟⲩⲧ. ϩⲁⲛϣⲉⲃⲓⲱ `ⲛⲕⲗⲓⲙⲁ ⲛⲉⲙ ϣⲁⲩ ϣϧⲉⲗⲧ `ⲛϩⲁⲛⲉⲣⲃⲓ ⲛⲁ 8 `ⲛϣⲟ ⲉⲙⲑⲟ `ⲙⲡϭⲟⲓⲥ ⲁϥϭⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ϫⲓⲛϣⲱϥ `ⲛⲑⲟ ⲃⲟⲩⲕⲟⲗⲓⲕⲟⲥ `ⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲛⲉⲙ ϫⲓⲛⲙⲟⲩⲛⲕ `ⲛⲥⲁϩⲣⲉ. ϩⲁⲛⲉⲑⲛⲟⲥ ⲛϣⲱⲣⲡ ⲁⲩⲕⲓⲙ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ⲫⲓⲁⲣⲟ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲧⲏ ⲁⲩⲑⲁⲙⲓⲟ ⲟⲩⲟⲓⲕⲟⲛⲟⲙⲓⲁ `ⲛⲟⲩⲟⲓ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲁⲩⲑⲟⲩⲏⲧ ⲟⲩⲙⲉⲧⲑⲟϧⲧⲉϧ.

I don't understand the paragraph well, especially words like ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲁϥⲟⲧϩ.. Would you mind to translate it into English (or Arabic). Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 20:30, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Ok so there's a translation of some words in this paragraph, hope it will clear things up:

• ⲁⲡⲟⲇⲉⲝⲓⲥ – evidence (Gr)
• ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲁϥⲟⲧϩ – rock carving, petroglypgh (ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲁ - stone, ϥⲟⲧϩ - something that is carved)
• ⲛⲁⲃⲁⲑⲙⲟⲥ – terrace (Gr)
• ⲡⲉⲣⲓⲟⲭⲏ – territory (Gr)
• ϣⲉⲃⲓⲱ `ⲛⲕⲗⲓⲙⲁ – climate change
• ϩⲁⲛⲉⲣⲃⲓ – pasture
• ⲟⲓⲕⲟⲛⲟⲙⲓⲁ `ⲛⲟⲩⲟⲓ – agricultural economics
• ⲁⲩⲑⲟⲩⲏⲧ ⲙⲉⲧⲑⲟϧⲧⲉϧ – centralized society

It's almost literal translation of this paragraph from English Wikipedia:

There is evidence of rock carvings along the Nile terraces and in desert oases. In the 10th millennium BC, a culture of hunter-gatherers and fishers was replaced by a grain-grinding culture. Climate changes or overgrazing around 8000 BC began to desiccate the pastoral lands of Egypt, forming the Sahara. Early tribal peoples migrated to the Nile River where they developed a settled agricultural economy and more centralised society. --Bloomaround (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

البحيرات المرة Bitter Lakes

The Bitter Lakes (maybe originally the bigger one?) are called kmy-wr(r) in Ancient Egyptian. According to Gundacker 2017 "Where to place 'Ältere Komposita'", page 120, it is vocalized kammíy-wurir in Old Egyptian, and develops into kammów at the Graeco-Roman Period. This would be written ⲕⲁⲙⲱⲟⲩ in Coptic. I don't know if there is a genuine Coptic name recorded, but if not, we could take ⲕⲁⲙⲱⲟⲩ for the Bitter Lakes, and distinguish them by small and big like in Arabic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I guess we have to find out why the lakes are called "bitter" first. It may represent a latter Antique/Medieval tradition. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Aydhab

Scala Gradus gives ⲃⲉⲣⲉⲛⲓⲕⲏ and ⲡⲩⲗⲗⲉⲣⲓⲕⲟⲛ for عيداب. I'm pretty sure عيداذ is عيذاب which was confused with ancient Berenike (which is actually Baranis). But where does ⲡⲩⲗⲗⲉⲣⲓⲕⲟⲛ come from? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Egyptian Arabic

Is it a policy on the Coptic Wikipedia proposal to deny the existence of the Egyptian Arabic language spoken by contemporary Egyptians? Why was the name of the country only given as مِصر‎ ⲙⲓⲥⲣ and linked to the Arabic language but not ⲙⲁⲥⲣ also as the Egyptian Arabic variant, as natively pronounced by Egyptians? Even the transliterated name is ϫⲟⲩⲙϩⲟⲩⲣⲓⲉⲧ ⲙⲉⲥⲣ ⲁⲗⲁⲣⲁⲡⲓⲁ. I would read it /ʃumˈhu.ret mæsɾ ɑ.lɑˈɾɑp.jɑ/. I imagine it should have been transliterated ⲅⲟⲙϩⲟⲩⲣⲉⲓⲧ ⲙⲁⲥⲣ ⲓⲉⲗⲁⲣⲁⲫⲉⲓⲁ.

• The user who made both edits is not Egyptian, are the users here generally foreigners?
• Are you using the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation? So, ϫⲟⲩⲙϩⲟⲩⲣⲓⲉⲧ /dʒum-/?

--Mahmudmasri (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2022 (UTC)