Talk:Wp/cop/ⲙⲉⲧⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ ⲙ̀ⲃⲩⲍⲁⲛⲧⲓⲟⲛ
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ in topic Autocrator
I'm a bit confused about using "ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ" for "empire" here. How are we supposed to distinguish between kingdom and empire/tsardom/duchy etc then? Is there another word or should we just continue to call any sovereign monarchical power "ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ"?
--Bloomaround (talk) 06:02, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ. ⲡⲉⲩⲗⲟⲅⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ. ϯϣⲉⲃⲓⲏⲧⲥ ϫⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ ⲓⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲓϣⲁϫⲓ ⲉⲧⲛⲁⲛⲟⲩϥ ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Autocrator
editThere is a Demotic equivalent of "autocrator" which is the same as Emperor. It's ı͗-ı͗r mḥ "the one who seized control". Wouldn't it be something like ⲁⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ/ⲁⲣⲉⲙⲁϩⲓ in Coptic? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 20:30, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
- As both words ı͗ı͗r and mḥ are attested, we are lucky. The first is attested in some frozen words in Coptic (like ⲉⲣϩⲱⲧⲃ murderer - the one who killed). So the outcome is ⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- Ohh true, you're right. Should we use it as "emperor" then? I will change ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ and ⲙⲉⲧⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ to ⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ and ⲙⲉⲧⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ respectively then. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ is actually attested in Bohairic as "emperor" so there's no need for that. So "empire" would be ⲙⲉⲧⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ohh true, you're right. Should we use it as "emperor" then? I will change ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ and ⲙⲉⲧⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ to ⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ and ⲙⲉⲧⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ respectively then. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- Did you undergo a change in opinion, from trying to express everything in Egyptian to use Greek words? (Just asking, not judging). Hans Förster lists examples in his Dictionary of Greek words in Coptic, where autokrator shows up as ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ and ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲟⲣⲟⲥ. He translates it as Oberbefehlshaber = commander-in-chief and not emperor. Additionally, ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ is actually commonly attested in Coptic, so I wouldn't change it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Are you sure ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ is exactly "emperor"? I'm just checking DDGLC Lexicon of Greek Loanwords in Coptic and it gives ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ for "emperor" (and it's also an equicalent of "imperator" in Greek) and ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ for "caesar" (which is kinda emperor as well but sounds like a more biblical term like Slavic кесарь) but says that it's attested in Sahidic. Is it attested in Bohairic as well? Btw there's also a good paper called "Egyptian Ethnic Identity Development in Anti-Chalcedonian Coptic Literature" which gives a lot of government terms and it uses ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ for "emperor" as well. I'll check different scalaes, let's see what they have. But i have a strong feeling that ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ has a broader meaning than ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, i've changed my opinion after studying Coptic a bit deeper and realising that it's a real language people were successfully communicating with. Also studying the past attempts of revival have finally changed my view on the neologisms and reconstructions. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Are you sure ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ is exactly "emperor"? I'm just checking DDGLC Lexicon of Greek Loanwords in Coptic and it gives ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ for "emperor" (and it's also an equicalent of "imperator" in Greek) and ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ for "caesar" (which is kinda emperor as well but sounds like a more biblical term like Slavic кесарь) but says that it's attested in Sahidic. Is it attested in Bohairic as well? Btw there's also a good paper called "Egyptian Ethnic Identity Development in Anti-Chalcedonian Coptic Literature" which gives a lot of government terms and it uses ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ for "emperor" as well. I'll check different scalaes, let's see what they have. But i have a strong feeling that ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ has a broader meaning than ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Did you undergo a change in opinion, from trying to express everything in Egyptian to use Greek words? (Just asking, not judging). Hans Förster lists examples in his Dictionary of Greek words in Coptic, where autokrator shows up as ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ and ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲟⲣⲟⲥ. He translates it as Oberbefehlshaber = commander-in-chief and not emperor. Additionally, ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ is actually commonly attested in Coptic, so I wouldn't change it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Why not the real Egyptian word? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 16:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- You mean the one derived from Demotic? It should be ⲫⲏⲉⲧⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ "he who seizes" btw (from < nt mht, h with dot), not ⲉⲣⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yes ⲫⲏⲉⲧⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ sounds good we can take it ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I think it sounds and looks good in the sense that it is a nice Coptic formation. But I don't think we should use it for "emperor". ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ is clearly established in the Coptic tradition (notably, not just one or two attestion in an obscure text), why should we change it? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Another thing I want to add: Whether we use ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲣⲁⲧⲱⲣ or ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣ, please, please, let's not just make meaningless edits back and forth. The difference is not big enough to waste energy in edit wars. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)