Talk:Wp/cop/Ⲕⲉϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ

ⲡⲓⲣⲁⲛ ⲉⲧⲉⲛϩⲟⲧ

Could someone explain please why do we consider ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ to be official name? And why do we prefer it over ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲏ (I understand why we shouldn't use ⲭⲁⲓⲣⲟⲛ though)? Thank you! --Bloomaround (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I think (could be wrong) that ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ is more Coptic than ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲏ. The official name of Cairo in Arabic is 'القاهرة'‎ (pronounced Al Ka-hera) literally means 'The Conqueror' in English. There's a debate whether that name is of Arabic origin (i.e., The Conqueror), or it's from Coptic ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲣⲏ literally 'Land of Ra' or 'Land of Sun' (BTW still there's a suburb in Cairo called Ein Shams or Eye of the Sun) which led to the Arabic name. I think in any case we must mention ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲏ after ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ as a synonym between brackets. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 22:03, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ (and ⲕⲉϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ, which is actually wrong because the construct form of ⲕⲱϣ is ⲕⲁϣ-, not ⲕⲉϣ-) is the genuine Coptic neologism of Cairo, used in medieval texts. The assumption that القاهرة is originally from a Coptic ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲣⲏ is a popular etymology and false. First, it should be rather ⲕⲁϩⲣⲏ (again, construct form). If it is not used with a construct form, then it should be ⲕⲁϩⲓ `ⲛⲣⲏ. ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲣⲏ is a pseudo-Coptic mixture. To concatenate Coptic words and think it's a sound compound is typical for Egyptians who cannot speak Coptic anymore. Second, there is no single evidence for such a compound in Coptic, Demotic or Hieroglyphic - let alone for a place in or around Cairo. I don't know who invented ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲣⲏ. Maybe it was a Coptic tourist guide who learned three words of Coptic in his church group and put some words together and presented tourists the fairy tale that القاهرة is actually Coptic, not Arabic. I am very into reconstructed and coining new words, but only if there is not a Coptic word already and it should be historically or linguistically founded.

I am strongly in favor of not mentioning ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲣⲏ as a proper name for Cairo. It is just not sound Coptic. It is simply grammatically wrong. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲏ is mentioned as far as 1901 by Casanova in his "Les noms coptes du Caire et localités voisines". So it's definitely not a tourist guide who introduced it. --ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 13:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Is there any information when ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ makes appearance or who used it first? We could write about it in this article. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 14:23, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

It shows up in a manuscript collected in "Catalogus codicum Copticorum manuscriptorum qui in Museo Borgiano Velitris adservantur". In the first part about "Codices memphitici" (Bohairic texts) Cod. XLVII. Note that it shows up as ⲕⲉϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ. I don't know in what year the manuscript was originally written, but the Catalogus was printed in 1810. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Zoega's famous Coptic Ms Catalogue of 1810 says (p.89) that Ms Borg.Copt.Memph.47 which seems to contain the earliest occurence of Ϯⲕⲉϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ was written in 927 AM = 1211 CE. --176.14.183.127 17:09, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Didn't know this folk etymology of ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲏ is taken so seriously. Thought it's just Arabic name written in Coptic to be honest. So ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ literally means "men breaker" which is akin to "conqueror", right? --Bloomaround (talk) 00:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 01:10, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Depending on whether it's Bohairic or Sahidic or whatever, the Arabic name would rather show up as (ⲁⲗ)ⲭⲁϩⲓⲣⲁ or (ⲁⲗ)ⲕⲁϩⲓⲣⲁ. ⲏ is never used to express the Arabic ending ة. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 15:23, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Suburbs

So i was making a map of Greater Kashromi (Kashromi/Dibersis) suburbs and i've decided to list the Coptic names i was about to use for them to discuss here first. So here they are:

• Kerdassa - ⲕⲉⲣⲧⲁⲥⲁ (couldn't find the origin of the name)
• Haram - ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ (so because we couldn't come up with a Coptic word for pyramids, let's use a Greek one)
• Omrania - ̀ⲛⲟⲙⲣⲁⲛ
• Monib - ⲙⲟⲛⲓⲡ
• Giza - ϯⲡⲉⲣⲥⲏⲥ
• Kaft Tuhmous - ϯⲙⲓⲛⲑⲟϩⲙⲟⲥ
• Doki - ⲧⲟⲕⲓ
• Agouza - Ϧⲉⲗⲗⲱ
• Mohandesin - ⲛⲓⲣⲉϥϣⲓ (had to come up with a new word for "engineer" – "measurer", which are used in lots of languages interchangeably)
• Kitkat - ⲕⲓⲧⲏⲕⲁⲧ
• Imbaba - ⲓⲙⲡⲁⲡⲁ
• Boulaq - ⲡⲟⲗⲁⲕ
• Zamalek - ⲥⲟⲩⲙⲗⲟⲩⲕ (comes form Turkish "üzümlük", but i'm not sure this representation in Coptic is good)
• Gezira - ϯⲙⲟⲩⲓ
• Manial - ⲙⲁⲛⲓⲁⲗ (couldn't find an etymology of name as well. The only thing i found is that it comes from indigo plant but i'm not sure)
• Rhoda - ϭⲱⲙ
• Garden City - ϯⲙⲓⲛϭⲱⲙ
• Old Cairo - ϯⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ ̀ⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ
• Islamic Cairo - ϯⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ ̀ⲛⲁⲗⲓⲥⲗⲁⲙ
• Downtown - ⲙⲏϯⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ
• Faggala - ̀ⲛⲛⲟⲩⲓⲛⲓ
• Azbakeya - ϯⲙⲓⲛⲁⲥⲡⲁⲕ
• Sakakini ̅ ⲥⲁⲕⲁⲕⲓⲛⲓ
• Abbasia - ϯⲙⲓⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ (or should it be ϯⲙⲓⲛⲁⲃⲁⲥ?)
• Shubra - ϭⲱⲡⲣⲟ
• Boulaq Aboulela - ⲡⲟⲗⲁⲕ ⲫⲓⲟⲧ ̀ⲛⲗⲟⲩⲗⲱⲟⲩ (not sure about this one at all)
• El-Quba - ϯⲥⲕⲏⲛⲏ
• Shubra El-Kheima - ϭⲱⲡⲣⲟ ⲟⲩⲣⲁⲛⲟⲥ
• Zatoun - ⲛⲓϫⲱⲓⲧ
• Al-Matariyya - ̀ⲙⲙⲁⲥⲛⲟⲩϯ
• Marg - ⲡⲓⲟϩⲓ
• Ain Shams - ⲱⲛ ⲡⲉⲧ ⲫⲣⲏ (not sure about this one. Found this name at St. Takla but it makes no sense to me to be honest).

As Ayn Shams is just the "modern" Heliopolis, I would differentiate the two by ⲱⲛ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ and ⲱⲛ `ⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ. Either we give Ain Shams the additional `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ, and leave Heliopolis ⲱⲛ. Or the other way round. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

• Heliopolis - ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ̀ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ .

The Coptic name is ⲱⲛ ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

• Sheraton - ϣⲉⲣⲁⲑⲱⲛ
• CAI - ⲙⲁⲛϩⲱⲗ ⲟⲩⲧⲉϣⲗⲱⲗ ̀ⲛϯⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ
• Nasser City - ϯⲙⲓⲛϭⲣⲟ
• City of the Dead - ϯⲙⲓ ̀ⲛⲛⲓⲣⲉϥⲙⲱⲟⲩⲧ (ⲙⲁⲛⲃⲏ)
• Mukattam - ⲥⲱⲗⲉⲡ
• Ein El-Sirah - ϩⲟⲙⲃⲉ ⲥⲓⲣⲁ
• Maadi - ⲛⲓϫⲓⲛⲓⲟⲣ
• Turah - ⲧⲣⲱⲏ (from Greek name. There's also Egyptian names "Tȝ-rȝw (Tȝ-rȝy - Twr - Try)" but i can't reconstruct them).

I try to reconstruct it. It is difficult because I still don't know which word exactly the second one is. There are several possibilities. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

• Masarra - ⲡⲓⲛⲟⲩⲧ
• Zahra'a Al-Maadi - what exactly Zahra'a is?

I thought it is a name. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's discuss and improve this list. Thank you! --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 02:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

ⲧⲉⲥⲥⲏⲙⲁⲥⲓⲁ

Can anybody help me with the understanding of this sentence? ⲁⲥⲥⲱⲣⲉⲙ ⲧⲉϥϫⲓⲛϯⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ ⲛ̀ϩⲟⲩⲟ ⲙⲉⲛⲉⲛⲥⲁ ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥⲙⲁⲛ ⲁⲩⲁⲙⲟⲛⲓ ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛ 1517. It is found under the chapter "ⲡⲓⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ ⲛ̀ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥⲙⲁⲛ". So, I know what "ⲙⲉⲛⲉⲛⲥⲁ ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥⲙⲁⲛ ⲁⲩⲁⲙⲟⲛⲓ ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛ 1517." means, but the first part is unclear to me. (The second part should rather be ⲙⲉⲛⲉⲛⲥⲁ ⲁⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥⲙⲁⲛ ⲁⲙⲟⲛⲓ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛ 1517.) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I found out what that sentence is supposed to mean, but it is not grammatical. I will change it to: ⲛⲉ ϯϫⲓⲛϯⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ `ⲛϩⲟⲩⲟ `ⲛϯⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ ⲥⲱⲣⲉⲙ ⲙⲉⲛⲉⲛⲥⲁ ⲁⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥⲙⲁⲛ ⲁⲙⲟⲛⲓ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛⲥⲟⲩ ϯⲣⲟⲙⲡⲓ 1517. "The great significance of Cairo was being lost since the Ottomans conquered Egypt in the year 1517." ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:07, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Funny that you single out this sentence, large parts of the article are agrammatical. بطرس مرقس (talk) 14:31, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, I wrote you a message too. Please let's work on the article here. بطرس مرقس (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, and let's add words here which we use in the article but may not be known to everyone. For instance: ϫⲓⲛϯⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ = significance (that hadn't been known to me when I first started working on the article). Or should we add it in Wp/cop/ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Lets talk about it here, and then add it in the Wp/cop/ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ. Given the context (ⲡⲓⲣⲁⲕⲙⲟⲛⲙⲉⲛ ⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲛ̀1952), ⲡⲓⲣⲁⲕⲙⲟⲛⲙⲉⲛ could mean revolution? Does this contain ⲣⲓⲕⲓ and ⲙⲟⲛⲙⲉⲛ? Do we have any other suggestions? بطرس مرقس (talk) 01:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

There's already a term for "rebellion, uprising, revolution" – ⲡⲓϣⲑⲟⲣⲧⲉⲣ (Luk. 21:9). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:45, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

We could use ϣⲑⲟⲣⲧⲉⲣ for protest and Ancient Greek ⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲁ for revolution? بطرس مرقس (talk) 17:05, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I think that sounds good. The bible verse with ϣⲑⲟⲣⲧⲉⲣ probably better reflects protest, outrage. And if we don't have any real Coptic word for "revolution", than OK. ⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲁ is not attested as "revolution" in Coptic, but it seems to have that meaning in Ancient Greek. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 23:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

ⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲁ has a clear religious meaning of "apostasy" in Coptic, not "revolution". ἀποστασία is basically a "defection, departure" and the meaning of "revolt, rebellion" (not "revolution" which is a modern concept and is επανάσταση in modern Greek) is a figural one. I think ⲡⲓϣⲑⲟⲣⲧⲉⲣ covers all these meanings in the same way quite well (disturbance-insurrection (Mar. 15:7)- uprising, revolution). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)