Talk:Wp/cop/Ⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ

Should be written ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, ⲑⲟ, ⲑⲉ- ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Is ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ actually attested anywhere? I can see all the dictionaries saying that ⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ means both "Greece" and "Greek". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Does any dictionary use ⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ for "Greece"? All dictionaries I checked only give the translation "Greek" ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right, i have misread Vycichl's dictionary and it looks like it only means "Greek" although Trismegistos claims it also means "Greece". But i'm not sure we should use unattested ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ for "Greece" when we have ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there anything which can convince you to like ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ? I think it's a quite safe bet, doesn't involve any unsafe reconstructions and the like. 14:51, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean why would we reconstruct a toponym when we have a word for it? ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ is used every time someone writes about Greece in Coptic texts (including the Bible). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, they use it because they don't know what else to use. For the same reason there are Copts who say ⲁⲩⲧⲟⲕⲓⲛⲏⲧⲟⲥ for "car". Coptic also exists outside the bible, and Greece never shows up in Bible school anyway so nobody has heard of ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ. If that word were super common then we could say it is in vain to argue for an alternative. But this is not the case. If Copts interested in their language want to express themselves they also use ⲭⲱⲣⲁ / ⲑⲟ / ⲕⲁϩⲓ ⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ. And ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ is not even "reconstructed". Everybody who knows Coptic grammar well knows that ⲑⲉ- is a compound form of ⲑⲟ. Why do we need to use so much Greek? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 20:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, Coptic exists outside the Bible, and when it does it uses ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ for "Greece" (check any genuine Coptic text). ⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲛ̀ⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ is OK, but i doubt anyone would prefer it to ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ. Why do we need to use so much Greek? Because Greek words are the essential part of Coptic. Why do you say "Greece" instead of native English Grecland? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:37, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Sometimes I can understand why people don't like my reconstructions, but I don't think that ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ is far-fetched and opaque? For instance in the discussion about ϣⲁϣⲱ you both seem to have disliked it, and I was fine with a literal translation of "Valley of the Kings". But I don't see the same problem with ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ here. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not far-fetched, it's just excessive. We have a word for "Greece" in Coptic. If someone would show me another one i'll change my mind. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:37, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

The only thing which is excessive here is you changing words in articles without adding any further content. If you start a new article, and want to go nuts on Greek words, OK. But if you change the phrasing in existing articles, without improving grammar or adding new content, it is just vandalism. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 12:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Changing a sentence for it to make sense is exactly improving it. Do you have anything to say on the topic of this discussion? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:18, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I have. Copts don't know ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ so don't suggest it is a common word. I am strongly for ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 13:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Do Copts know ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ? I doubt that. And Copts who have read any Coptic literature or the Bible know ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ for sure. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:34, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

They don't know either. So we can take any of them, and I think the Coptic wikipedia should use Coptic words. When they revived Hebrew, the also didn't just take all words from European languages but coined new words from within and Semitic. Maybe you should spend some time with actual Copts, we are very eager to create Egyptian words. It's funny that on the one side you don't like reconstructions and on the other side like words nobody uses anymore as long as they fit your agenda. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 13:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Why would you create a word when your ancestors that used to speak a real living Egyptian language you'd like to revive and speak would use another one? ϩⲉⲗⲗⲁⲥ is a 100% Coptic word while ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ is not as it has never been used by a single Copt. But you've used a very strong word – that you want to create (a language?). Maybe we should use the existing Coptic language that is well documented and has a name for Greece in it's 1000 years old literary history? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Apparently, for you only words are real which have been written down in a printed book. Please go to Egypt and join Coptic enthusiast circles, they will use ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Of course written words are the most important source for me because Coptic is a dead language that has no oral tradition. If they use ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ then they lack knowledge of Coptic literature and would make the same mistake as a lot of people have made before (the biggest example here is Claudius Labib). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:05, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Great, a rando from Russia tells Copts how to speak their language. Thank you dear supreme European overlord! Reminds me when the Russian tsar sent his orthodox bishops to convince the Coptic pope to join their church because they would be too weak to survive alone. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh wow, i guess you have nothing left to say. You're so ignorant it hurts. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah sure. Remember you started to call others ignorant and essentially not knowing their language only because they don't like your choice of words. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:28, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Please, guys, let's be nice to each other. On-topic: I actually also like ⲑⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ. I think ⲑⲉ(ⲛ-) is a nice way to create toponyms. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2020 (UTC)